Diskuse:Josef Božek

Josef Božek se narodil 28. února 1782 ve slezských Běrech v rodině českého mlynáře Mikuláše Božka a jeho druhé ženy Marie, roz. Dudové.[1]

@Gaj777:, @Qasinka: - Reginald Kneifl: Beschaffenheit und Verfassung, insbesondere des Herzogtums Teschen, Fürstentums Bielitz (...), Brünn 1804, s. 150: "Biery oder auch Biry, deutsch Beyersdorf, ein zur Herrschaft Grodietz gehöriges Dorf mit einer Mühle an dem Wasser Jasionka (...) In diesem Dorfe sind 27 Hausnummern, und 184 Einwohner pohlnischer Sprache." [1]: "českého mlynáře" - jedyny Czech w Bierach? Nie mówię że to niemożliwe, ale może chociaż wzmianka o tym, że Biery to nie była zwykła czeska wieś, a tak można to zrozumieć z treści artykułu. D_T_G ^{(cs) (pl)} 22. 4. 2020, 19:56 (CEST)

@D T G, Qasinka, Gaj777: Thanks, D T G, for the reasonable remark. My personal opinion is that the nationality by language was not considered important in Austria in the time when Josef Božek was born. (As example, my grand-grand father was born in Gdów, now Poland, and lived nearly the whole life in Bohemia, there are many other people who moved from one country to the other.) This is also why Polish sources may define Božek as Polish or Czech–Polish. I am convinced that Josef Božek is mostly considered to be Czech as his whole professional life is linked with this country. I have also found a remark here that his teacher in school teached children in Czech (I understand it that he did not teach in German) which, of course, tells nothing about his mother language. The Polish birth records are not, so far, scanned and generally published to verify eventually the language and the form of the name - could not you help us? For the moment, I cancel the problematic word "český" specifying Božek's father. Best regards--Svenkaj (diskuse) 22. 4. 2020, 22:24 (CEST)

Absolutely, Moravian-language books sent from Brno were used in the rural primary schools of the Těšínský kraj, Polish was used in the Catholic churches (which was attested in the 17th century), German in the towns, including in the galician Biala, where Bożek studied later, because it was a part of the Bílsko-bělský jazykový ostrov. I have recently expanded the article en:Cieszyn Silesian dialect, where I included all that information. I added there this sentence in regard to the early 19th century: Depending on the education of the writer a varying level of code-switching between Czech, Moravian, Silesian and Polish can be observed, which apparently didn't impede much the communication between the Slavic speakers, as opposed to the language barrier, that could and often did exist between the local Slavic and German speaking population. Jan Sarkander spent most of his life in Moravia and not in Silesia, but in the Czech article he is called Silesian and not Moravian. Adam Mickiewicz is a polský spisovatel, představitel polského romantismu, eventhough he was born in Belarus and never lived in Poland, which did not exist back then. Poles consider him Polish, Belorussians Belorussian and Lithuanians Lithuanian. I see the Czech-Wikipedia took the Polish side. D_T_G ^{(cs) (pl)} 23. 4. 2020, 07:32 (CEST)

I agree with the deletion of the world "českého". The ethnicity questions in the 18th century in Teschen Silesia are complex and unequivocal statements are usually anachronic (they reflect concepts that evolved in 19th century). Now I urgently recomend @D T G: to delete similary inadequate notions "polski" in categories in the article Leopold Jan Szersznik in Polish Wikipedia. ;-) --Qasinka (diskuse) 23. 4. 2020, 07:58 (CEST)

@D_T_G: Yes, we live in a complicated continent. You may have noticed that the description on Božek's grave (I live very close to it) is written in German :-). I agree with @Qasinka: that the question of ethnicity (and nationalism) was raised in the 19th century only, the graves near Božek's one confirm it. Best regards--Svenkaj (diskuse) 23. 4. 2020, 10:42 (CEST)

This complexity is fascinating, but I would disagree to just ignore this question, because we live after the 19th century and a multitude of historians have been for a long time arguing about this, here are just two fresh examples from the Polish literature: 2012 and 2015. At the time of Jan Sarkander a German clerk from Breslau came to Skoczów with the knowledge of the Moravian language, because he needed it here. In his diary he mentioned how he learned the Polish language from the local population - so with the knowledge of Moravian he differentiated it from the local language. It was almost two hundred years before Josef Bożek. It was precisely Szersznik who protested the usage of the Moravian language textbooks in the schools, because as he put it: the mother tongue of the majority of the pupils was Polish - was Szersznik anachronistic there? D_T_G ^{(cs) (pl)} 23. 4. 2020, 11:44 (CEST)